Good discussion, thank you. I will add (though I’m not endorsing this view) that I’ve heard the justification for positive liberty as “the first concept of liberty was fine until capitalism proved so predatory as to require more security of liberties,” in addition to Phocian’s observation that the second concept reflected a decline in competence for a population that could not flourish under the first concept. Perhaps the second concept of liberty is the only thing separating us from having a population of helots, though I suspect the helots were capable of flourishing once relieved of bondage, hence the care the Spartans took in preventing that.
Also, I don’t know if this was intentional, but I chuckled at Phocian’s analogy regarding Douglas’s opinion of the wife marrying too early, considering he married a 23 year old as a geezer, and then later, as an even older geezer, he married a 22 year old.
I've heard something similar on positive liberty; as I understand it, the proliferation of the railroad made new kinds of corporations possible. That is, businesses could become bigger and they ended up boards that were now far removed from the moral / material circumstances of employees.
So it seems possible that the second concept of liberty is not always bad. But it does seem like even if it temporarily saves some from becoming helots, it creates habits that prepare their children to become helot (and not the kind of helots that could menace Athenian allies while under the command of the Spartan Brasidas.
I didn't realize that Justice Douglas had that marital circumstance--that is a nice coincidence.
Good discussion, thank you. I will add (though I’m not endorsing this view) that I’ve heard the justification for positive liberty as “the first concept of liberty was fine until capitalism proved so predatory as to require more security of liberties,” in addition to Phocian’s observation that the second concept reflected a decline in competence for a population that could not flourish under the first concept. Perhaps the second concept of liberty is the only thing separating us from having a population of helots, though I suspect the helots were capable of flourishing once relieved of bondage, hence the care the Spartans took in preventing that.
Also, I don’t know if this was intentional, but I chuckled at Phocian’s analogy regarding Douglas’s opinion of the wife marrying too early, considering he married a 23 year old as a geezer, and then later, as an even older geezer, he married a 22 year old.
Thanks for the thoughtful note.
I've heard something similar on positive liberty; as I understand it, the proliferation of the railroad made new kinds of corporations possible. That is, businesses could become bigger and they ended up boards that were now far removed from the moral / material circumstances of employees.
So it seems possible that the second concept of liberty is not always bad. But it does seem like even if it temporarily saves some from becoming helots, it creates habits that prepare their children to become helot (and not the kind of helots that could menace Athenian allies while under the command of the Spartan Brasidas.
I didn't realize that Justice Douglas had that marital circumstance--that is a nice coincidence.
*my apologies, I got my Phocis and my Phocaea mixed up